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I'd like to update the SE5a skin
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Recon3
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2004 8:02 pm    Post subject: I'd like to update the SE5a skin Reply with quote

Historically she wore brown canvass, right?
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ArgonV
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2004 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've seen both borwn and a greenish brown in books and such. Looks fine to me right now. Big Grin What could REALLY use a new skin is the Aviatik C.I. I just slapped the new FM on her and MAN I forgot how old the skin is on this kite. Sad I did fix the fuse shading too while I was at it.
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Recon3
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2004 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, send over the Aviatik stuff then. Cool
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FlyXwire
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2004 11:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Recon,

The following information comes from the book British Aviation Squadron Markings of World War I, by Les Rogers:

Although the exact date is unknown, P.C.10 (Protective Colouring No.10) was specified as the standard finish for all aeroplanes going to France by an R.F.C. Quarter Master General letter dated 26 June, 1916.

P.C.10 was made by mixing one part of lamp black powder to 250 parts natural iron oxide paste by weight with oil or cellulose and dryers. This produced a medium to dark brown.

At the same time that P.C.10 was developed, P.C.12 was also accepted. The mix proportions of P.C.12 was the same, except red iron oxide was substituted which produced a red/brown colour.

However, due to differences in quality of pigments, careless weighing, etc., the final shades of either colouring would have varied and probably account for the varied descriptions of these colours.

Now to further confuse the situation, we have the following excerpt from the book Fighters 1914-19, by Kenneth Munson:

This concerns the basic colour in which the upper surfaces of most British aircraft on the Western Front were finished from 1916 onward. This colour is repeatedly referred to as 'khaki green' and even as 'dark green'. The latter description is completely inaccurate, and the former is sufficiently imprecise to mislead. The paint used in this finish was made to Ministry of Munitions Specification P.C.10 (Protective Covering No. 10), and its actual pigments were natural oxide of iron (yellow ochre) and lamp-black (or carbon black). They were mixed in the ratio of 250 parts yellow ochre to 1 part lamp-black by weight of dry pigment - not such an unbalanced mixture as it sounds, since the yellow ochre weighed fairly heavily while the lamp-black was extremely light in weight. When mixed together these can only result in a darkish-brown shade. What has given rise to the 'green' part of the description is that, for protective purposes, this dry mixture was intermixed with cellulose or oil varnish or some other glossy liquid medium, when a curious optical effect known as 'green shift' takes place, giving the finished coat a tendency to look slightly greenish under certain light conditions. (All British finishes, except some of the late-war night colours, were highly glossy.) An ex-works aircraft could therefore show a tendency towards a greenish-brown shade - though still predominantly brown - but once the material had 'weathered' after the aircraft had been in service for a while the effective colour was a positive dark brown shade. Re-created paint samples and the inspection of actual fabric samples from contemporary aircraft bear this out. In later years, as an aid to production at a time of material shortage, the two original pigments were mixed in their original proportions and canned under the name 'standard khaki'. It was added straight from the can to the most readily available base medium, and its final coloration was accordingly dictated by the medium chosen; for example, mixing with an oil varnish would produce a greater degree of 'green shift' than mixing with cellulose acetate, and both shades could be observed on one airframe, the former finish applied to ply panels and the latter to upper-surface fabric. An incidental point, often overlooked in describing or illustrating World War I colour schemes, is that quite often this dark finish was carried round and under the leading, and sometimes the trailing, edges of the flying surfaces for an inch or two, depending on the size of the aeroplane, giving them an 'outlined' effect when seen from underneath.

Finally, through contemporary research comes the following chip code as presented in the magazine Aircraft Monthly, Volume 3 issue 5:



*Note* Your monitor's color resolution may vary from mine. Wink

It is very possible that aircraft which served in more arid theaters during the war were treated with P.C.12, which definitely looked more red-brown than P.C.10. Through the research done by Paul Lloyd (above), it certainly appears as if P.C.10 possessed a definite brownish-green color.

As a scale modeler of WW2 aircraft and armored vehicles, I often ran into discrepancies between U.S.A.A.F. Olive-drab (brownish-green), and U.S. Army Olive-drab (medium-green), and it seems that similiar confusion also exist to this day with British P.C.10!

If I were to settle on a 'correct' color for our British aircraft in FS-WWI (which I have already done for my texturing), it would be that middle color chip above...........a very good compromise indeed! Happy
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Recon3
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2004 2:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Dave! I've been wanting to change her to brown ever since about a month after finishing them, say over a year ago. It's kinda been bugging me since then.
At some point soon I'll change my tifs and send them over to Argon. It's about a 10 minute fix. It's just something I haven't gotten around to.
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ArgonV
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2004 7:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Recon3, by all means if you've been itching to do so! Big Grin I LOVE spur of the moment fixes. Like the Aviatik fuse shading for example!! Laugh
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ArgonV
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2004 7:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

P.S. HOLY CRAP FlyXwire!!!!!!!!! Shocked Shocked Shocked That's a TON of info there!!!!!!!! Cool
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Recon3
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2004 9:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Argon, I remember there being an 'issue' with the creators regarding the colour of skin. Was it from WTG himself?

It was a question of doped white or something-or-other (maybe light blue). Do you remember?
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ArgonV
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2004 9:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Man I sure dont... Sad
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FlyXwire
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2004 10:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do have a bit on the subject Argon. Smile

Here's a scan of an actual piece of P.C.10 painted fabric from the book WWI British Aeroplane Colours And Markings, by Bruce Robertson:



(your results may vary) Wink

Recon, here's a scan of the color artwork from the Windsock profile on the Aviatik C.I:



If you need addition photo references let me know.

One thing we should change is to model the small rudder 'inset' forward of its the pivot point (see top color view for detail).
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Recon3
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2004 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Those are good Fly', thanx! Cool
I only noticed this moring that the rudder is wrong.

I just got back from a search for the Windsock at my local hobby stores, but no luck.
Hmm, I hear there's a fire sale going on at Sv's site Wink but I don't think I'll have time to wait for it's arrival.

Got any side-views clearly showing detail in cowling air vents, etc? Did she have laces underneath like the DVII?

Maybe I'll quickly rebuild the rudder. I've got a deadline, tho. hmmm...so many questions, so little time.
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FlyXwire
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2004 11:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aren't deadlines great for motivation! Cool

Here's a description of the 'Sky' camouflage:

Sky camouflage

During 1915 German aeroplane manufacturers were required to make use of thin translucent fabric covering in order to provide some form of 'sky camouflage'. Also at this time light-coloured pigmented dopes began to be employed - the colours initially being white or very pale grey; later a bluish- white colour was adopted and proved to be the most effective. On white, or near white machines the national insignia was frequently painted directly to the appropriate surfaces - no backgrounds being required. Later, on 'blue' machines, these backgrounds again became necessary and were so applied.

I'll e-mail you the line drawings, and a few detailed photographs.
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Recon3
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2004 2:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Dave!
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Recon3
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2004 6:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Argon,
When you have a few minutes can you send me the SE5a tif that shows the top-rear upper surface of the fuse. I can't find that tif anywhere and think it may have been lost in one of my many HDD reformats. Embarassed
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ArgonV
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2004 7:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok I sent the right one this time... Poke Tounge
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