The future of our community?

[Blacksheep]

Hey everyone who's still around. I admit I haven't been here a heck of a lot lately, I haven't really been flight simming that often anywhere really, real life has a habit of doing that sometimes.

Anyway, I got a message at my web sites message board (which is still up) from someone who was wondering if OPS was still active as he hadn't seen a lot of action here and that he had made some planes that he wanted to get into the game but wasn't exactly sure how. On that note, if you are reading this Provost, there are some people who can help you here. I am no expert on importing planes that you have created but if you post someone will see it and reply!

Anyway, I started looking through my old site, old posts here and thinking about all the great times I had here, learning how to fly a plane, working on missions and just having fun with everyone in general. This was my first modern PC game ever on the first modern PC I ever owned (the Tandy I had before with Hero Quest and Bubble Bobble doesn't count as modern lol). It was also the first time I ever downloaded a patch or an expansion of any kind because frankly I rarely played PC games back then, just stock SDOE, Caesar III and consoles for everything else. In that regard, while installing SDOE add ons, I learned Windows file structures and ultimately learned to upgrade and build my own PCs as a result of trying to get SDOE to run and look better! lol.

Back on track, I read the anniversary thread this year indicating we are now 11 years old and saw ArgonV muse that it was quiet while wondering if we would be here next year. I then started to remember how we hit our biggest snag ever when Activision refused to release the source code, dooming us to the existing code for eternity. Such a shame, we have and had such accomplished plane builders and artists here, now they are scattered to the winds.

That brings me to my main point. A few months ago my parents crashed their windows PC for the umpteenth time with a virus so new and severe, I couldn't get it out with HiJack this, combofix and a variety of other high end tools, so I was gonna have to format and reinstall windows, but instead of windows I installed Ubuntu Linux, a free OS which, to my great surprise, is outstanding and highly advanced (and easy to use now). Far superior than my last foray into Linux with Red Hat 6 or 7 years ago, which was a train wreck of difficulty! (I'm now dual booting it with Win 7 on my gear)

Anyway, Ubuntu Linux has grown a lot and there are a lot of people making free software and games, one of those games is flight gear http://www.flightgear.org/

It works in Windows, Mac and Linux and the most important aspect, because it is of a Linux origin, is that the source code is freely available to everyone, in fact you will see the download right on the download page.

It is fairly advanced (although the code needs work) and open to any modders, providing you keep the source code free and available. I started wondering, what if our future is there? What if everyone with their building and programming skills picked up over at flight gear, bringing the models we have and reworking FMs and code for that software? What if Flight Gear, modded for WWI and WWII could become our SDOE II?

I'm not sure who we have left anymore, but it was just something I was thinking about. In my head I imagine it working and everyone coming back with new enthusiasm, working on "SDOE II" in an open source environment, more modern than our now aging code. Most likely a pipe dream, but the open source, free world of Ubuntu, where the motto is "everyone should have access to computing" reminded me of you guys working so hard for free here all these years.
_________________


"Fortune favors the bold" - Vergil
=V67= Blacksheep
The Sheeps Pen

[ArgonV]

Hello!

Good to see you around these parts mate. Indeed there are those here (Myself included) that can help out Provost. All he need do is ask.

I have heard of Flightgear and toyed with the idea of porting things over. Problem is my time is not that extensive any more either. Sure I have time to help out 3dp and others here, as well as advance what little I can of FS-WWI anymore but a whole new sim takes a lot of work. I'm kinda burnt out on that side, but it sure does look like the ideal place for us modders in the future!

On that note, have you tried out the latest and greatest? Plane Pack 5 + Patch are really awesome and 3dp has really been turning out Expansion Pack fixes and updates.

I hope this community can stick together, and help polish off SDOE to a state where eveyone can look at it and say "That was a good run". I sure do miss the active days!
_________________
'Go Fly A Kite!'
-Jason R.
FS-WWI Project Leader

FS-WWI Plane Pack Site

[Blacksheep]

Yeah I figured we'd need the entire community back at its peak to pull off such a swap, especially people like VDU, but I also realize that is unlikely. It's definitely far to much for a few people to handle and burn out after 11 years has appeared to hit, well, a lot of folks. I was kind of hoping this post would hang up in the forum for a bit and maybe catch a few old timers attention.

I haven't actually tried PP5 + patch, a few new PC builds and a reformat or two later and my SDOE install has gone to the wayside. But now you have that fancy one in all .exe that doesn't even require the disk, so I will get it going again soon and see if I remember all my old system adjustments to boot! lol.

Glad to hear you are still out there as well 3dp! Still taking the Cape Cod vacation and driving past our big blue bug (and ultra mega new highway system?) lol
_________________


"Fortune favors the bold" - Vergil
=V67= Blacksheep
The Sheeps Pen

[ArgonV]

I don't even think you will have to make any system adjustments except for maybe the throttle control with the All In One.

At this point, I'm far more willing to give the reigns of a new sim over to someone getting paid to do so. The Rise of Flight crew present the best WWI simming dream for me. I know Oleg is working on a Battle of Britain sim, perhaps that will be the new defacto standard for modders as well? Who knows... SDOE for me has gone back to just being a hobby, much like when I first joined the community rather than a passion.
_________________
'Go Fly A Kite!'
-Jason R.
FS-WWI Project Leader

FS-WWI Plane Pack Site

[3dp]

Funny you should mention Cape Cod, as this year will be the first time in many years I haven't made that trip!

I for one certainly feel that I'm crossing the Ts and dotting the Is as far as SDOE is concerned. The Legacy packs have a lot of nice fixes courtesy of ArgonV and we have the LDOR Legacy in the wings, but that will probably be the end. That's why I'm imploring anyone with anything to contribute to do so now. Wait any longer and it's going to be a tree falling in a forest. Legacy packs don't require perfection!

Don't get me wrong, I'll still be hanging around as with all the fixes in place, SDOE will be as complete as it can be. I'll keep playing SDOE as frankly, in addition to being a great sim, it's familiar (I don't have a ton of time to learn something new!), it's got a lot of scope (any theater, virtually any plane), and it's free (imagine the $ in expansions to give something new what SDOE has!). I sort of took the WW2 reins while working with ArgonV to create target markers for my 'Big City Campaign' and I still intend to return to it. Without a straight port from SDOE to another sim (I can't imagine re-doing all the work), I don't imagine moving.

While I may may occasionally explore other sims, the scope SDOE offers will likely see it always on my PC.

[Blacksheep]

Sorry to hear you won't be taking the vacay this year 3dp

Anyway, yeah it seems like it might be time to finally cut new releases over here with the declining community. I'd say the two of you are putting the final touches on what can be considered a pretty great final release of everything with the final Plane Packs and fixes coming to an end. This game had a longer lifespan than any I've ever seen 11+ years of modding in addition to however many more years people will continue to play it after the mods stop.

I'll always be sad that Snick and others couldn't pry that source code out of Activision though. What are they even going to do with it considering they are more interested in Guitar Hero and Call of Duty now? I doubt they will ever release another PC based flight sim again.

Anyway, one of you guys might want to PST Provost before finishing up the WWII packs. He is a native French speaker so hopefully I replied in a readable fashion for him, but I do believe he had some planes he was interested in adding/working on.

Good to hear from you both again
_________________


"Fortune favors the bold" - Vergil
=V67= Blacksheep
The Sheeps Pen

[ArgonV]

I just sent a PM to Provost. He can still access his account here yes?
_________________
'Go Fly A Kite!'
-Jason R.
FS-WWI Project Leader

FS-WWI Plane Pack Site

[Skid]

[LesterBoffo]

Well I seem to be a collector of old obsolete flight sims. Now that I got FS-WWI my other sims seem less nice.

I made 3D models for Targetware's Richthofen's Skies before the axe fell on 0.64.

I was busily porting all of my WWI and Prewar planes over to RS. I'm less enthused about the changes at TW mainly because the changes have locked my participation out because my old 'puters don't run Shader 2 support.

I guess an obligatory rant about 3D modeling progress would be in order now, but I'm tired of the effort. I'd like to give my planes a home but I want to keep my hand in the development process.

I'm not too sure about learning OpenPlane's modeler. It seems involved, I'm getting sort of old and crotchety about larnin' new stuff, when I can do just as well in Metasequoia. But I really like results of the planes from RS that have been ported into in FS-WWI, I just wish that landscape creation was a little less arcane.

And could someone tame the AA accuracy?... Damn I hate being repeatedly popped at '9000 when when I cross the front.

Excuse my ramblings

Lewis
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FMS & Targetware 3D Model dev.

[ArgonV]

[Blacksheep]

[Shadow OPS]

The biggest thing missing from this sim was tools. Dot your Is and cross your Ts... When the time finally comes to close the hangar, at the bare minimum we can look back and say "That was a job well done..."

SDOE was indeed the sim that proved the critics very, very wrong. Though we may be nearing the last page I am not ready to close the book yet, not by a long shot.
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Shadow OPS - Slides back into the safety of the shadows...

[ArgonV]

Indeed, we have tools but they can be very hard to understand and slow going. I've been doing this for many years, and still the thought of importing an aircraft fresh haunts me... Which is what I am doing right now with the R.E.8 LOL!

One of these years I want to put together an "SDOE Gold" Edition with only the best user-made SDOE addons all in one Package, much like the FS-WWI All-In-One.
_________________
'Go Fly A Kite!'
-Jason R.
FS-WWI Project Leader

FS-WWI Plane Pack Site

[Kugelfang]

Hi Guys,

I have no idea how I stumbled across FSWW1 after all these years but just the other day I came across this forum and decided to poke around. I've not done any SDOE stuff since emailing my original Taube to Argon. But I do have some more recent experience with FlightGear, though, real life keeps me away for the past few years. Nevertheless, I think my experience with FG is still valid.

Getting planes into FG is probably not the biggest challenge for SDOE modders. While a number of model formats can be imported, FG works best with the *.ac format from AC3D. It is an open, text based format. Since I mostly work with Wings3d, I created a Ruby script to convert *.obj models to *.ac. It was not terribly difficult. I think getting operational models into FG is much easier than almost any other sim I've tinkered with.

In FG, animations and behaviors are normally defined in XML files, though there is also a scripting language (NASAL) which can be used to handle quite a bit. For modders, as opposed to programmers, there are a lot of possiblities in FG. There are several systms for flight modelling. Again, I think they are XML based but this is outside my experience. But I do know that flight modelling can be very precise and accurate. It depends on how much effort one puts into it. If I recall correctly, FG can be used in obtaining one's pilot license. The accuracy of flight modeling is probably far above anything in any commercial flight simulator. (Of course, much of it depends upon knowing the technical characteristics of a particular plane.)

However, there are some issues to consider. FG does not have much of a damage system. System failures, yes, damage modelling... not so much. I'm not sure how advanced the AI system is--again, I think this is mostly handled with NASAL. I see it used mostly for generating big iron air traffic so the skys are not devoid of other planes. Whether it is advanced enough for AI combat I do not know. The same goes for combat itself. Some people are creating combat systems using NASAL. There are some bombing examples as well as rudimentary air to air. As far as I know, nobody has really seriously explored how far and how detailed this can become. FG does have extensive on-line play. I'm not at all sure about scenary generation. I think the entire world is availble including modern airports, cities, etc. I'm not sure what it would take to create a more limited, historical scenary. There are no functions for a player campaign game. Most likely such a thing would have to be created as a third party add-on. I doubt that the FG maintainers would ever allow a campaign manager to be integrated into the code base.

Every now and then combat gaming does pop up in the FG forums. It can engender a lot of controversy. Some FG users are dead set against any combat abilities being incorporated into FG. Some FG users are adamant that FG is a flight simulator, not a combat simulator and certainly not a game. The arguments can get quite heated and silly. As far as I know, the actual FG maintainers are mostly ambivelent about combat in FG. It's just that combat is outside the interest of many of the developers and consequently, comprehensive combat code has never made it into the releases.

However, being under the GPL license, there's no reason that FG could not be used as a base to form a new project as long as the new project follows the GPL. The FlightGear developers do take the GPL quite seriously. The code is available. As long as the terms of the GPL are observed, there are no proprietary gotchas. So the potential is definately there. But it requires more of a coding effort rather than a modding effort.

The official FG forum is at http://www.flightgear.org/forums/ . However, most serious development discussion takes place on the developer and user mailing lists accessible from www.flightgear.org . If you're seriously interested in using FG, the mailing lists are well worth investigating. Take the forum with a grain of salt.

--jeff
(aka Kugelfang)

[ArgonV]

Hello Kugelfang! Wow it has been a loooong time. Thank you very much for the chance to put your Taube in-game. It helped me immensely learn the workings of OpenPlane and model importation. Much of your Taube was used to form the one that exists today in FS-WWI. I still even have your original Taube model flying in-game. I would suggest you try out the current state of FS-WWI when you get the chance. It's easy as ever to get up and going. Just go here: http://www.fsww1.com/ and follow Option Three for the All-In-One in which one does not need the original Fighter Squadron game.

I did take a look at Flight Gear several years ago to see if a combat module was viable, when I thought SDOE was on its way out. While the import process appears much easier than OpenPlane's, I'm not one for XML editing... I'm much more visual based, as are most of the people that mod for SDOE. We have very very few programmers active among us... If there were more active members and a more diverse group following still among us, I would indeed like to explore Flight Gear further as a "sequel" but I'm afraid not many are around anymore. Thus personally, I'd rather spend my time perfecting what exists in SDOE today. I'm even more inclinded to do so as a new game Patch is in the works.

Thanks for dropping by and sharing your ideas! It's good to see some of the old crew and contributors pop in and say Hi, as well as tell us what they've been up to.
_________________
'Go Fly A Kite!'
-Jason R.
FS-WWI Project Leader

FS-WWI Plane Pack Site